Robin D. Laws - We Evolved On the Grasslands To Have This Debate
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09:20 am
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We Evolved On the Grasslands To Have This Debate

Now freed from the PR shackles that constrain the heralds of Hasbro, my longtime pal Jonathan Tweet has waded back into the evolutionary psychology debate he started a little over a year ago. As you may recall, Jonathan suggests that the obvious gender imbalance among hobby gamers arises from human evolutionary development. Men are wired to design and play games that stimulate our hunter-gatherer instincts, which explains why the staple games of our hobby appeal to very few women.
Over breakfast at Gamestorm ‘08, Jonathan toyed with the idea of stopping by a gender & gaming panel I was to appear at in order to drop his ev-psych bomb. I wish he’d made it to the panel. If he had, he would have heard many of the women participating in the discussion talk about the flack they faced from the boys when they first tried to get involved with RPGs. If you got hassled simply for trying to play, you don’t hear Jonathan’s evolutionary hypothesizing and hear an academically intriguing theory. Instead you once again hear the echoing voices of the boy’s club justifying its attempt to keep you and your darn girl cooties away from their crystalline twenty-siders.
Anyone flying the banner of evolutionary psychology has to be prepared to account for the ideological baggage it carries. As espoused by many of its early adherents, it reeked of Social Darwinism retooled for a new generation. It also attracted out-and-out race cranks like Philippe Rushton.
In the nature versus nurture debate, the modern left has always chosen to treat behavior as the result of social construction. If there is no innate human nature, we can change ourselves for the better by altering our social conditioning. The idea that we have certain responses hardwired into us, especially nasty atavisms of tribalism and violence, feels troublingly retrograde.
A left-liberal evolutionary psychology does exist, as found in the work of writers like Robert Wright. To recuperate the implications of evolutionary psychology, merely identifying the responses we pull from our primate kit bag isn’t enough. Here we identify and understand them into order to better overcome them. This is where I’d like to see Jonathan go if he continues to refine his take on gender and gaming.
In addition to being an ev psych popularizer, Wright also runs the Bloggingheads.TV site, which runs daily video podcasts in which pairs of pundits debate various topics of the day, mostly political. As part of his promotion for The Evolution of God , his upcoming book on the evolution of religious impulses (which is up both of Jonathan’s alleys), he’s been running a series called Percontations, in which scientists discuss the intersections between belief, behavior, and cognition.
The episode most directly touching on the issue of overcoming negative evolutionary programming is Beliefs, Aliefs, and Daydreams. It even concludes with a discussion of cognition as it applies to video games, complete with a mention of Ender’s Game.
Also germane to this discussion is Humanity’s Primate Heritage. Here the principles of ev psych are convincingly presented as basic common sense.
If, on the other hand, you’d like to hear Wright himself patiently reduced to babbling embarrassment by a critic of ev psych as we know it, check out his discussion with Joan Roughgarden, author of a book called The Genial Gene . She wants there to be good ev psych, but rejects much of what has been done in the field so far due to a lack of evidentiary rigor. Her toughest critique: ev psych relies heavily on the sex selection theory, which has always been shaky and is increasingly looking like it might be completely baseless.
Tags: belief, cognition, evolution, gaming hut, psychology, science
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thanks (I think) for getting me to consider ev psych again after years of casually rejecting it out of hand, and for cutting through several layers of tedious cruft here to get to the interesting part.
keep you and your darn girl cooties away I've never witnessed this but I understand there's a lot of it. Where do I go for a discussion of the diversity of gaming experience, I wonder?
thanks! Looks like an interesting forum.
which explains why the staple games of our hobby appeal to very few women.
I... think his data might be out of date.
It might just be easier to say that many games are designed by men to appeal to their often teenage tastes so it's not surprising that they appeal to less women. But I wouldn't want to stand in the way of a big web shouting match.
Seriously, don't let a logical, simple answer get in the way of web drama.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/77507137/14470288) | | | controversy, genes, gaming, race, etc. | (Link) |
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Thanks for picking up this topic.
I have a particular fondness for human fallacy, and the intellectual weaknesses of my fellow liberals elicit special attention. The leftist (especially Marxist) resistance to the idea of a built-in human nature is one such weakness, and it squares up nicely with my interest in evolution in general.
I've given some amount of thought to how to make RPGs more attractive to women. The problem is that a too-explicit attempt to accommodate women comes across as sexist because it implies that women and men are different. I've done what I could to increase the presence of female images and language in the games I've worked on, but that only goes so far. Maybe what's next is a full-on treatment of what seems to work and not work for women in gaming. That's a big task to get right, but maybe that's the task that's cut out for me.
I'll have to check out the critique of sex selection.
As for race and genes, even I know better than to go there.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/89527706/10100235) | | | Re: controversy, genes, gaming, race, etc. | (Link) |
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The leftist (especially Marxist) resistance to the idea of a built-in human nature
and yet Marx built his whole theoretical edifice on the idea of Homo Faber. It's mystifying.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/3363563/809446) | | | Re: controversy, genes, gaming, race, etc. | (Link) |
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Mysterious even.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/90552559/260257) | | From: | eyebeams |
| Date: | June 3rd, 2009 04:01 pm (UTC) |
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| | Re: controversy, genes, gaming, race, etc. | (Link) |
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With all due respect, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more essentialist form of leftism than pure Marxism. I think your criticism is kind of a lampoon. It's not really about the existence of data saying people are different. It's about how it's used to construct stories about why people are the way they are, and this disconnect is a problem you can't wave away, especially since the distortions it causes are problems for actual biologists, not just Marxists. To look at more broadly, people have said very, very silly things about human intelligence and behavior using just this sort of rationale for what, maybe a century? This means that current evo psych claims need to bring something pretty powerful to the table to be taken seriously.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/77507137/14470288) | | | Re: controversy, genes, gaming, race, etc. | (Link) |
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I'm going to follow a policy of not responding to comments on Robin's blog. I know "silence = death" and everything, but I already feel a little bad about how much Internet vitriol I've exposed my friends to.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/90552559/260257) | | From: | eyebeams |
| Date: | June 3rd, 2009 09:19 pm (UTC) |
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| | Re: controversy, genes, gaming, race, etc. | (Link) |
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I'm just saying that first chunk of text is a real zinger. While I wouldn't call myself a voice of moderation and I do disagree with the more strident and of evo psych, it's not as if the either side is composed solely of intellectual degenerates, either, and it's not my intention to tell you that you suck or anything. For instance, to throw some fifty cent words into the mix, we're getting more and more evidence that epigenetic effects matter in humans to a greater extent that previously realized. Now it would be possible to be snarky and phrase this as Nurture Wins Again! because it's kicking out critical genetic expressions that affect behavior, it a kind of causal privilege, but this would be dishonest; it's more likely that the interactions are complicated enough that in my view,it's just not necessarily a great idea to derive folk stories about human behavior from them. It ain't just Marxist. There are real unknowns and complexities at work.
Lots of interesting links to follow there - thanks.
Without having been present at the event, I wonder if the apparent predominance of women who feel they've been badly treated by boys is because that's the subset of women gamers who (understandably) feel the need to make the unjustice they've suffered publically known? Meanwhile the rest of us just carry on listening to the interesting theories, and gaming.
Further thought - it may be particularly acute in women for whom that sort of discrimination was a new experience. If gaming was the first thing they'd tried that didn't fall into the typical female areas, it probably came as quite a shock. I say "probably" because I can only guess - I met RPGs after a year doing an apprenticeship in a military engineering firm, and a further year studying physics at Cambridge. Being one of two or three females in a group of (say) 20 was a vast improvement on being one in 500. A more "typical" female would, I suspect, find it a lot harder.
| From: | dylangault |
| Date: | June 3rd, 2009 05:49 pm (UTC) |
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| | EvPsych and FATAL | (Link) |
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One of the things I covered in class was that horrible RPG FATAL. We actually looked at it in greater depth than I thought I would. I mention it here because the danger for Evolutionary Psychology is the same trap that the author (authors?) of FATAL fell into: using research heavily influenced by an idea of human nature to bolster an idea of human nature. FATAL provides a host of bibliographical references, but they are often horribly cherry-picked references or references that scholarship has been able to show have been unduly influenced by a preconception of human nature.
It is definitely possible to produce valuable research from within a set of preconceptions, but there are good ways and bad ways to go about this.
In RPGs, it is perhaps bad to reinforce certain ideas of human nature through play (though I am not convinced of this). In scholarship, I am more confident that it is bad to reinforce certain ideas of human nature.
Do you really regard JoT's thesis as "academically intriguing" for 2008? It sounds to like like a trivial extension of the general thesis that men are evolutionarily better suited for hunting behaviors, and women for gathering behaviors, which has been rattling around for decades. I mean, Newt Gingrich made headlines way back in 1995 for saying that men are better suited for combat because "males are biologically driven to go out and hunt giraffes".
(Note: "Has been rattling around for decades" should not be read as an endorsement.)
Is that really your takeaway from what I've written?
OK, that's what I get for commenting on something that I've read in a hurry. Sorry about that.
We've all been there. No worries.
As you may recall, Jonathan suggests that the obvious gender imbalance among hobby gamers arises from human evolutionary development. Men are wired to design and play games that stimulate our hunter-gatherer instincts, which explains why the staple games of our hobby appeal to very few women.
I gather he's never considered eye-watering gamer hygiene as a factor? Or the puerile sexual attitudes of geek stereotypes far too over-represented in our hobby?
Possibly the hunter instincts are an explanation for said gamer hygiene and puerile sexual attitudes? No, I don't believe it myself, it's OK.
| From: | (Anonymous) |
| Date: | June 3rd, 2009 10:22 pm (UTC) |
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Hmmm, over at John Wick's blog he just posted about rpg's and women too. Between Tweet and Wick, lots to sort out. -Drumheller
*ding ding ding*
I got started on AD&D 2e, where 'he' was the default pronoun and the default assumption, and social interactions between characters were not an important part of the mechanics. Didn't care, didn't care - the idea of an RPG was so neat, I loved it. I ran in a more "girly" way, with emphasis on character interactions more than combat, but the system wasn't a turn-off. I haven't yet met a female gamer (or ex-gamer) who left the hobby because of a system.
I mostly played with friends I recruited into the hobby, and it wasn't until much later that I learned how many jerks there are in gaming.
I can't imagine leaving gaming as a whole because of a rule-system. It's just mechanics. There's plenty of systems, pick a different one, or write a different one, (Which I have, both options - AD&D in any form is not designed to support the gaming styles I prefer).
Gamer hygiene and crude behavior have got to be factors.
But then you'd have to actually do something about it, instead of shrugging and saying women, whaddayagonnado?
From the Atomic Rocket site...
"Imagine a speculative fiction writer back in the Victorian era, such as Jules Verne. Say they wanted to write a novel about the far future, when heavier than air flight had been invented, and the age of Aerial Combat had arrived.
They might take the dramatic and comfortable metaphor of sea-going frigates and battleships and transporting it intact into the aerial environment. Held aloft by dozens of helicopter blades, the battleships of the air would ponderously maneuver, trying to "cross the T" with the enemy aerial dreadnoughts.
See how silly it sounds?"
It's probably me being a Steampunk fan, but that actually sounds freaking awesome.
| From: | (Anonymous) |
| Date: | June 4th, 2009 06:47 am (UTC) |
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WARNING The previous poster did not include a link to the Atomic Rocket website for a reason: SF geek visitors will get no work done. You have been warned.
And now that I look through everything, I'm slightly confused... I thought for sure I got to AR by following a link from this post, but now I'm not sure... I can't seem to find it again.
Roughgarden's critique of sex selection seems pretty weak. It calls sex selection into question for corner cases (social insects, adulterous birds), but her biggest critique of this wide-ranging hypothesis is that there's no competing hypothesis to explain all the data. She's questioning particular applications of the hypothesis, but the sex-selection hypothesis is very broad, and she doesn't address what could replace it.
Hm. Games written largely by men and with a male audience in mind don't appeal as strongly to women, therefore the girls don't like to play because they'd rather be home pounding grain and raising babies. Did I miss anything?
I....am an unwoman.
hangs head in shame
Evolutionary Psychology is not science. You can use it to prove any "fact", and when you can use something to prove anything, it isn't science.
There's so much nonsense in the field, that it's clear that all it takes to publish a paper is to come up with some idea: "Americans are more religious because they have religious genes!" and then wave your hands frantically... while ignoring the fact that people with the same genetic stock back in Europe have much lower rates of religiosity.
It's just sociologists trying to co-opt the patina of "science" for themselves, in a traditionally very unscientific field.
| From: | (Anonymous) |
| Date: | June 4th, 2009 09:55 am (UTC) |
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Hmm, that's interesting.
Having taken years of sociology courses, I've never once met a proponent of evolutionary psychology involved in the field.
Of course, that may have to do with the fact that sociologists, by and large, espouse social factors as the critical component for the negotiation of self. Essentialist arguments would be met by most of them with mocking derision.
However, it's quite popular to bash sociology as "unscientific", even amongst sociology students. And while the question of sociology's validity may be worthwhile, and is certainly good fodder for debate, I do have to disagree with the assertion that it should be lumped with evolutionary psychology.
I rather think that it's the reverse: it's (biological) scientists trying to pass themselves off as sociologists.
In North America, nothing is as associated with heredity as political party affiliation, but it would be foolish to identify this as genetic.
Good social science research attempts to find the correlations involved and come up with reasonable causal factors. Evolutionary psychology attempts to take some known causal mechanisms and use them to explain existing correlations; but just because a mechanism is known to produce effects does not mean that the mechanism can produce every effect.
Much of gender differences in the history of biology was based on Victorian gender differences. Biologists attempted to find gender activity they knew in the organisms they studied. When they found the activity they knew, they took it as a confirmation, when they found something odd, they identified it as an anomaly. We're still sifting through such research.
In the case of the evolution of our own gender differences, it is really hard to say what the history of our evolution was. There are wide differences in primate behaviour, just as there are wide differences in human behaviour today. In the past, one might find a stone axe or spear and claim that it was a male implement, but there is no reason to make this assumption. If other evidence can be brought to bear on the matter, then great, otherwise we are imposing our current gender roles on the people of the past.
I rather think that it's the reverse: it's (biological) scientists trying to pass themselves off as sociologists....or seeking to sink the discipline of sociology for aesthetic reasons (cf. Sokal affair). In the past, one might find a stone axe or spear and claim that it was a male implement, but there is no reason to make this assumption....and there we have the entire processual/post-processual debate in a nutshell. It's amazing how close those days still are, isn't it?
I am always confused by the rabid insistence that no subgroup can be "different" by nature. If we make human equality contingent on that assumption, it becomes a religious tenet that can be crushed on that one day we find out that there is some difference between men and women (besides plumbing), races (besides skin color), gender preferences (besides reproduction)... So what happens if, once the science is all worked through, it is true? Once you come up with a bias-free measurement, if one group is predisposed to something or another? Then, is it OK to consider them as less equal?
To bring this back to gaming a little, in Living Greyhawk we actually played with this a little, dealing with half-orc suffrage in the Yeomanry. In D&D, the rules don't lie. Half-orcs *are* dumber and more aggressive on average than a human. So, should they be an equal part of society, or not? 3/5 of one maybe?
My take is that everyone being created equal isn't a scientific theorem but a philosophical proposition. Being fanatically "sure" that people are or aren't different in these ways - whether it's the racist trying to justify their discrimination or the "liberal" trying to prove the opposite - is a tenuous and illogical belief.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/91624899/864771) | | From: | laurelt |
| Date: | June 5th, 2009 03:59 am (UTC) |
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| | Re: What Is Equality? | (Link) |
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Half-orcs *are* dumber and more aggressive on average than a human. So, should they be an equal part of society, or not?
You believe that a person's worth depends on how smart they are? Or how smart "on average" people of their race are?
Being fanatically "sure" that potential average differences between large groups of people justifies disparate and unequal treatment of every individual in those groups is not merely a tenuous and illogical belief. It's crackpottery.
I never new that Jonathan Tweet was such a schmuck.
Sexism and gaming are practically synonymous. The number of times I have encountered knuckle draggers in my day is to many to count. My wife generally refuses to go into gaming shops because of how the men treat her. It actually makes me quite angry. I have heard everything from "girls can't game" to "girls can't paint."
The latter is especially amusing because my wife has painted a bunch of my miniatures for me and they look like the miniatures the you see from the Golden Demon awards. I guess that is what an art degree gets you. :P
I working in the video game industry as a game designer. It overjoys me to be in a D&D group right now that is 2 guys and three women. Everyone in the group are game designers in the game industry. I hear story after story from the women about how men treat them. It actually angers me.
That interview with Joan Roughgarden was superb. Thanks.
Graham |
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